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	<title>Comments on: What is wrong with Britain?</title>
	<link>http://www.aelon.net/2006/01/what-is-wrong-with-britain/</link>
	<description>Random babblings from a few digitally inclined people</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Vermouth</title>
		<link>http://www.aelon.net/2006/01/what-is-wrong-with-britain/#comment-1747</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.aelon.net/2006/01/what-is-wrong-with-britain/#comment-1747</guid>
					<description>What's the compelling state interest?  Their is no signifcant evidence that games are a causational motivator for games.  No evidence that people who  were totally normal and peaceful played a game and like a switch  became killers.  All the evidence points to the fact that people who had whole other sets of problems were compounded by the fact that they played large sums of games is the worst you can expect.  And in most cases their parents bought them games in  spite of the fact that the box gives you  a clear set of descriptors for the content in the game.  

All this does is add a layer of censorship where the government gets to decide stuff that it simply has no bussiness deciding.  The body of evidence we had to have before putting warnings on Tobacco products was substantially greater than what we've got now.  And if children playing games is such a social crisis, why is it that violent youth crime  and violent crime is down like several fold while video game play is going up exponentially.  Their is a good argument that video games can have some ill effects but it doesn't amount to a strong body of science where classification (a soft form of censorship)  of speech is concerned.  Federal Regulation is to be the option of last resort only to be gone to when their is a real need for it when free market forces are creating a society that needs the government to step in for society to move on properly because it's threatened by bussiness.  Not because we are a bit annoyed with something, or we don't like it.     There is no reason for the government to be involved in this mess; and it is a violation of free speech to go in and write rules on a federal level about what children can and cannot see or play without a compelling state interest which their is insufficent evidence to support.    If we knew for certain that their were harmful effects caused by video games, not that video games can be a contributory factor in certain circumstances, not that we think, not that we're even fairly sure of, but  instead were certain  that would be one thing.  But the evidence points in several directions at once about what level of impact playing violent games has upon children. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s the compelling state interest?  Their is no signifcant evidence that games are a causational motivator for games.  No evidence that people who  were totally normal and peaceful played a game and like a switch  became killers.  All the evidence points to the fact that people who had whole other sets of problems were compounded by the fact that they played large sums of games is the worst you can expect.  And in most cases their parents bought them games in  spite of the fact that the box gives you  a clear set of descriptors for the content in the game.  </p>
<p>All this does is add a layer of censorship where the government gets to decide stuff that it simply has no bussiness deciding.  The body of evidence we had to have before putting warnings on Tobacco products was substantially greater than what we&#8217;ve got now.  And if children playing games is such a social crisis, why is it that violent youth crime  and violent crime is down like several fold while video game play is going up exponentially.  Their is a good argument that video games can have some ill effects but it doesn&#8217;t amount to a strong body of science where classification (a soft form of censorship)  of speech is concerned.  Federal Regulation is to be the option of last resort only to be gone to when their is a real need for it when free market forces are creating a society that needs the government to step in for society to move on properly because it&#8217;s threatened by bussiness.  Not because we are a bit annoyed with something, or we don&#8217;t like it.     There is no reason for the government to be involved in this mess; and it is a violation of free speech to go in and write rules on a federal level about what children can and cannot see or play without a compelling state interest which their is insufficent evidence to support.    If we knew for certain that their were harmful effects caused by video games, not that video games can be a contributory factor in certain circumstances, not that we think, not that we&#8217;re even fairly sure of, but  instead were certain  that would be one thing.  But the evidence points in several directions at once about what level of impact playing violent games has upon children.
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		<title>by: Kelmon</title>
		<link>http://www.aelon.net/2006/01/what-is-wrong-with-britain/#comment-1745</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.aelon.net/2006/01/what-is-wrong-with-britain/#comment-1745</guid>
					<description>In Reply to &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-1744&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;#24&lt;/a&gt;: It is indeed a fair point that any ratings system is bound to screw-up.  However, I do hold that it's better than nothing and better than hoping that all parent's exercise their responsibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Reply to <a href="#comment-1744" rel="nofollow">#24</a>: It is indeed a fair point that any ratings system is bound to screw-up.  However, I do hold that it&#8217;s better than nothing and better than hoping that all parent&#8217;s exercise their responsibility.
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		<title>by: Vermouth</title>
		<link>http://www.aelon.net/2006/01/what-is-wrong-with-britain/#comment-1744</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.aelon.net/2006/01/what-is-wrong-with-britain/#comment-1744</guid>
					<description>Why, the very notion of age based ratings is that we can't as a society look at every individual and assess their particualar ability to digest such information.  We understand though that some people over 13 may be ill prepared for the content of a pG13 movie and some people under that age may be prepared for it but we take an average advisory rating based on a general and intrically incomplete picture based on the average.  However a parent can assess the readiness of their particualar child for some particualr content.  

Why do you assume the state knows best?   Blanket solutions made by a government that has next to no contact with gamers, aren't going to be as well tailored as speciffic solutions  imposed by parents who live with the child every day.  In my personal experience with children playing Soul Calibur (rated teens) is more likely to lead t o real life violence than playing Mature rated Halo.  Inevitably fighting games lead to real fights  wheras I play Halo with my brother and he doesn't get any more violent over it.  As such Halo and Half-Life are allowed in the house whereas Soul Calibur and Tekken are not.  

Another interesting query is what about socially controversial content.  I'm not talking BMX XXX or GTA stuff.  Something like Shadow Hearts covenant which features gay characters.  You can't pretend like the Federal board (probably the FTC) won't  see political pressure to make sure that such a game is rated M or AO because of that.  A ratings board that carries the imprimatu of government can never really be independent.   Which is really the bigger problem is you can't be both inependent and a federal regulatory agency.  I don't know where you get your delusions that you can be both independent and answerable to an elected offical.  You're either one or the other you can't be both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why, the very notion of age based ratings is that we can&#8217;t as a society look at every individual and assess their particualar ability to digest such information.  We understand though that some people over 13 may be ill prepared for the content of a pG13 movie and some people under that age may be prepared for it but we take an average advisory rating based on a general and intrically incomplete picture based on the average.  However a parent can assess the readiness of their particualar child for some particualr content.  </p>
<p>Why do you assume the state knows best?   Blanket solutions made by a government that has next to no contact with gamers, aren&#8217;t going to be as well tailored as speciffic solutions  imposed by parents who live with the child every day.  In my personal experience with children playing Soul Calibur (rated teens) is more likely to lead t o real life violence than playing Mature rated Halo.  Inevitably fighting games lead to real fights  wheras I play Halo with my brother and he doesn&#8217;t get any more violent over it.  As such Halo and Half-Life are allowed in the house whereas Soul Calibur and Tekken are not.  </p>
<p>Another interesting query is what about socially controversial content.  I&#8217;m not talking BMX XXX or GTA stuff.  Something like Shadow Hearts covenant which features gay characters.  You can&#8217;t pretend like the Federal board (probably the FTC) won&#8217;t  see political pressure to make sure that such a game is rated M or AO because of that.  A ratings board that carries the imprimatu of government can never really be independent.   Which is really the bigger problem is you can&#8217;t be both inependent and a federal regulatory agency.  I don&#8217;t know where you get your delusions that you can be both independent and answerable to an elected offical.  You&#8217;re either one or the other you can&#8217;t be both.
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		<title>by: Kelmon</title>
		<link>http://www.aelon.net/2006/01/what-is-wrong-with-britain/#comment-1743</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 10:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.aelon.net/2006/01/what-is-wrong-with-britain/#comment-1743</guid>
					<description>From my perspective, words fail to describe how much I insist that rating systems are enforced.  If a book, film, game or whatever is stated to be unsuitable for persons under the age of 13, for example, then whoever sells a copy of said material to someone under the age, or with the knowledge that it will be provided to someone under the age (e.g. said child is requesting mum to buy it for them at the counter), then they should have the book thrown at them.  There is no way ever that I would consider it acceptable for a parent to decide that an 18-rated film was suitable to be shown to someone below that age.  This makes for a very black and white rule and would at least go someway to protecting society from irresponsible parents.

Putting control of these materials in the hands of parents puts control into the hands of the weakest link.  I find it both desirable and necessary that the government enforces these restrictions.  When applied to games, this at least means that kids won't be playing Virtual Slaughter 16 and that can only be a &quot;Good Thing&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From my perspective, words fail to describe how much I insist that rating systems are enforced.  If a book, film, game or whatever is stated to be unsuitable for persons under the age of 13, for example, then whoever sells a copy of said material to someone under the age, or with the knowledge that it will be provided to someone under the age (e.g. said child is requesting mum to buy it for them at the counter), then they should have the book thrown at them.  There is no way ever that I would consider it acceptable for a parent to decide that an 18-rated film was suitable to be shown to someone below that age.  This makes for a very black and white rule and would at least go someway to protecting society from irresponsible parents.</p>
<p>Putting control of these materials in the hands of parents puts control into the hands of the weakest link.  I find it both desirable and necessary that the government enforces these restrictions.  When applied to games, this at least means that kids won&#8217;t be playing Virtual Slaughter 16 and that can only be a &#8220;Good Thing&#8221;.
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		<title>by: Plagiarize</title>
		<link>http://www.aelon.net/2006/01/what-is-wrong-with-britain/#comment-1738</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.aelon.net/2006/01/what-is-wrong-with-britain/#comment-1738</guid>
					<description>actually in reply to #20 i can't help but point out that dope is banned :)

interesting that someone brought up the bulger case. i'm very familiar with it. familiar enough to know that there was no evidence that the boys had even seen childs play 3 and that the retractions posted in the newspapers were very small and far from the front pages. people still think there was a direct link. no such defence, or testimony was ever put forth in their trails or as part of the investigation into their crimes.

here's a trial where the tabloid newspapers actually broke laws by publishing the names and photos of the accused killers.

childs play 3 was to my knowledge never banned, but many retail and rental chains pulled the film, and i distinctly remember seeing one video store on the news BURNING their copies.

i'm not saying that videogames are the first thing to fall victim to this in the uk... and music is a different case in that for the most part the 'PARENTAL ADVISORY' sticker is a voluntary ratings system not legally enforced... but they're certainly the current scapegoat. no one is blaming horror films and marilyn manson anymore. the problem is, that video games have been the scapegoat for a very long time, and there's no sign of things getting any better, just signs that things are getting worse.

it might surprise you to learn that i draw a firm line at censorship. i'm against it in everyway. no film should ever have cuts mandated, or be out right banned, but legally enforcing a rating, perhaps because it's something i grew up with, isn't the same thing at all.

there's a fine line between thought police and sensible governmental control i admit, but it exists and classification is the right side of that line to me. it would be better for most kids if their parents took an interest in what games they were playing. i know parents that have written letters to blockbuster and local game stores to say 'let my son buy and rent anything'. these aren't irresponsible parents, but parents who can see that their kid isn't anything but a well mannered and responsible individual.

so long as the law isn't making it illegal for a kid to be given or play that game, then to me it's on the right side of the line. so long as the ratings are only based on whether or not the game is violent or sexual, and aren't based on any political or social philosophy it has... then it's on the right side of the line.

i'm not proposing we turn control over to the government. the bbfc in the uk do a fine job. yes, it can go horribly wrong, but so long as the classification body is independant, to both the government and the game industry... so long as is kept an eye on, it can and quite probably will evolve into something worthwhile. the bbfc was awful when it started out, now they're pretty much on the nose. legally enforcing ratings has actually allowed for less censorship in video games ultimately in the uk, which is something i'm glad about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>actually in reply to #20 i can&#8217;t help but point out that dope is banned <img src='http://www.aelon.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>interesting that someone brought up the bulger case. i&#8217;m very familiar with it. familiar enough to know that there was no evidence that the boys had even seen childs play 3 and that the retractions posted in the newspapers were very small and far from the front pages. people still think there was a direct link. no such defence, or testimony was ever put forth in their trails or as part of the investigation into their crimes.</p>
<p>here&#8217;s a trial where the tabloid newspapers actually broke laws by publishing the names and photos of the accused killers.</p>
<p>childs play 3 was to my knowledge never banned, but many retail and rental chains pulled the film, and i distinctly remember seeing one video store on the news BURNING their copies.</p>
<p>i&#8217;m not saying that videogames are the first thing to fall victim to this in the uk&#8230; and music is a different case in that for the most part the &#8216;PARENTAL ADVISORY&#8217; sticker is a voluntary ratings system not legally enforced&#8230; but they&#8217;re certainly the current scapegoat. no one is blaming horror films and marilyn manson anymore. the problem is, that video games have been the scapegoat for a very long time, and there&#8217;s no sign of things getting any better, just signs that things are getting worse.</p>
<p>it might surprise you to learn that i draw a firm line at censorship. i&#8217;m against it in everyway. no film should ever have cuts mandated, or be out right banned, but legally enforcing a rating, perhaps because it&#8217;s something i grew up with, isn&#8217;t the same thing at all.</p>
<p>there&#8217;s a fine line between thought police and sensible governmental control i admit, but it exists and classification is the right side of that line to me. it would be better for most kids if their parents took an interest in what games they were playing. i know parents that have written letters to blockbuster and local game stores to say &#8216;let my son buy and rent anything&#8217;. these aren&#8217;t irresponsible parents, but parents who can see that their kid isn&#8217;t anything but a well mannered and responsible individual.</p>
<p>so long as the law isn&#8217;t making it illegal for a kid to be given or play that game, then to me it&#8217;s on the right side of the line. so long as the ratings are only based on whether or not the game is violent or sexual, and aren&#8217;t based on any political or social philosophy it has&#8230; then it&#8217;s on the right side of the line.</p>
<p>i&#8217;m not proposing we turn control over to the government. the bbfc in the uk do a fine job. yes, it can go horribly wrong, but so long as the classification body is independant, to both the government and the game industry&#8230; so long as is kept an eye on, it can and quite probably will evolve into something worthwhile. the bbfc was awful when it started out, now they&#8217;re pretty much on the nose. legally enforcing ratings has actually allowed for less censorship in video games ultimately in the uk, which is something i&#8217;m glad about.
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